In-Depth RV Lithium Install & Wiring Film - Mike Mas - Page 4

IdleUp · 10-31-2019, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

I think that is right. We have an AGM system with no LPG and it works just fine for our purposes off the under-hood generator and diesel for heat. Whether you need a separate generator depends on your use, not the type of batteries you have. I wouldn't idle my sprinter all night to run the AC.

I think this is a more interesting question. Solar mostly tops off batteries. That is important for AGM's that need to be kept fully charged and drawn down as little as possible. Lithiums actually do better being kept partially charged. But for us, our solar will keep our refrigerator running indefinitely, at least in summer. So, once again, it depends on your use.

Thanks for the reply - I agree, there is nothing wrong with AGM batteries and a few solar panels to extend your off the grid time. Lithium is not for everyone, it depends how you use your RV, for most owners going from campground to campground AGM work fine.

My Sprinter had solar and a 8D 200 ah AGM with a 2K inverter which worked fine for charging my stuff and running the 12 volt fridge. For the most part, the panels put back most of what the fridge used during the day as long as there was sun. However, even with the 200ah (really 100ah) AGM, overnight the fridge dumped my battery levels.

Regretfully 3way fridges are being phased out because RV manufactures can replace them with cheap compressor units costing less than 25% of a good 3 Way unit, leaving us to suffer trying to the batteries up, plus you have the additional interior heat they generate.

I realized the major advantages of a lithium RV a year ago, when I installed a smaller lithium system in my Newmar New Aire Type A, shown in my video. For a field RV, I choose the LTV Wonder specifically for a my lithium system, since it had the storage and 3 way fridge and heat.

Since I'm into drone photography, 90% of the time I'm out in a remote locations with no power. Having a lithium coach offers me a whole new platform since it allows me to fire up the air while I’m reviewing shots on a full size Mac 27, plus while I’m charging the field monitors and drones.

Regards - Mike

Bud · 10-31-2019, 07:29 PM

"Regretfully 3way fridges are being phased out because RV manufactures can replace them with cheap compressor units costing less than 25% of a good 3 Way unit, leaving us to suffer trying to the batteries up, plus you have the additional interior heat they generate."

Very nice entertainment, well kind of: The seemingly never ending BS vs the collective wisdom of the "six guys" (still trying to be in that number) on this forum. Not really, the collective wisdom of the entire forum.

"I realized the major advantages of a lithium RV a year ago.."

Wow, that was quick.

Bud

IdleUp · 10-31-2019, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bud

"Regretfully 3way fridges are being phased out because RV manufactures can replace them with cheap compressor units costing less than 25% of a good 3 Way unit, leaving us to suffer trying to the batteries up, plus you have the additional interior heat they generate."

Very nice entertainment, well kind of: The seemingly never ending BS vs the collective wisdom of the "six guys" (still trying to be in that number) on this forum. Not really, the collective wisdom of the entire forum.

"I realized the major advantages of a lithium RV a year ago.."

Wow, that was quick.

Bud

Thanks for the reply - however it really boils down to the category of wisdom, surely their expert wisdom is not Lithium chemistry, that is unless I missed their some of their writings or systems they might have built.

Bud · 10-31-2019, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IdleUp

Thanks for the reply - however it really boils down to the category of wisdom, surely their expert wisdom is not Lithium chemistry, that is unless I missed their some of their writings or systems they might have built.

And that IS troll behavior.

Bud

IdleUp · 10-31-2019, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bud

And that IS troll behavior.

Bud

No Bud I appreciate any reply - I'm just questioning if the wisdom your speaking of, with a half a dozen guys hanging around a forum 24/7, would supersede my 25+ years of study and building lithium powered equipment for the military.

For the most part, this whole wisdom this is just small talk - I'm still trying to understand why I was attacked after posting the film. Also, I'm still waiting for my big "Master-List" of things wrong with my video so it can conform to their approvals.

Thanks

booster · 10-31-2019, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IdleUp

No Bud I appreciate any reply - I'm just questioning if the wisdom your speaking of, with a half a dozen guys hanging around a forum 24/7, would supersede my 25+ years of study and building lithium powered equipment for the military.

For the most part, this whole wisdom this is just small talk - I'm still trying to understand why I was attacked after posting the film. Also, I'm still waiting for my big "Master-List" of things wrong with my video so it can conform to their approvals.

Thanks

Like I said before, it is not our obligation to make you a list to bitch about when you haven't answered the things that were brought up, except to say they are right because you are so much smarter than everyone else.

Most of the questions, I think, had to do with the why of how the system was setup, and could have been any battery style, so all this complaining about non lithium knowledge is pretty hollow. Many here probably have more experience than you do with things like standalone engine generators, which you keep ignoring and talking about charging off the stock alternators.

As for the videos and motives, you haven't answered those questions either, and as mentioned, they certainly carry the entire laundry list of ambassador/influencer/paid shill that we have seen often and is against the forum rules unless you get owner permission.

RossWilliams · 10-31-2019, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Lithium is not for everyone, it depends how you use your RV, for most owners going from campground to campground AGM work fine."

AGM batteries work fine for boondocking as well. They are heavier, larger and cheaper than Lithium. Ignoring those three things, they both provide the same amount of power overall. AGM's lose more power to low temperatures above freezing, below freezing you can't charge lithiums and below -4 you really can't use them at all. Both need some form of charger beyond solar, whether propane, diesel or gas. And they will last only as long as the fuel lasts to charge them. I don't see a huge advantage for large battery banks, either lithium or AGM, if you are going to run a separate charger. You might as well just run directly off the charger. Of course the batteries are quieter ...

SteveJ · 10-31-2019, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IdleUp

Thanks for the reply - I agree, there is nothing wrong with AGM batteries and a few solar panels to extend your off the grid time. Lithium is not for everyone, it depends how you use your RV, for most owners going from campground to campground AGM work fine.

My 100AH $100 non AGM battery with 150 watts of solar works fine for me for up to my two week limit(need to refill/dump tanks) for boondocking. Very rarely stay at a campground with hook ups. This is verified with a battery monitor.

So no, I and others here do not need lithium systems for boondocking.

Caveats, my daily amp hour usage, 10-20 per day) is minuscule compared to yours and I do have an LP fridge. Everybody has their own needs/wants.

Very nice, neat install, BTW.

Quote:

Regretfully 3way fridges are being phased out because RV manufactures can replace them with cheap compressor units costing less than 25% of a good 3 Way unit, leaving us to suffer trying to the batteries up, plus you have the additional interior heat they generate.

A little mis information here, I think. Most compressor fridges, at least in anything not built ultra cheap, are the marine type with a Danfoss type high efficiency compressors and definitely not 25% of the cost of 3-way.

hbn7hj · 10-31-2019, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IdleUp

Since I'm into drone photography, 90% of the time I'm out in a remote locations with no power. Having a lithium coach offers me a whole new platform since it allows me to fire up the air while I’m reviewing shots on a full size Mac 27, plus while I’m charging the field monitors and drones.

Now we understand why you want all that power and not use it for the compressor refrigerator.

We all have different power needs and solutions. I have two RV’s with two different systems. The class C charges the lithium from the generator ‘cause it tends not to move. The class B charges the lithium from the engine alternator through a DC to DC charger limited to 40 amps. It also has a generator for the A/C when needed.

My major power needs are Satellite TV, furnace, phone booster and device charging. Both have solar.

Some here have removed the generator and charge from the engine.

How about listing the components of your system with price?

RossWilliams · 10-31-2019, 09:45 PM

I have done backpacking and paddle trips with no batteries beyond AA's for flashlights, if the only issue is what is possible ...

booster · 10-31-2019, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hbn7hj

Now we understand why you want all that power and not use it for The compressor refrigerator.

We all have different power needs and solutions. I have two RV’s with two different systems. The class C charges the lithium from the generator ‘cause it tends not to move. The class B charges the lithium from the engine alternator through a DC to DC charger limited to 40 amps. It also has a generator for the A/C when needed.

My major power needs are Satellite TV, furnace, phone booster and device charging.

Some here have removed the generator and charge from the engine.

How about listing the components of your system with price?

Yep, but the no moving doesn't seem to happen with a lot of the smaller C's that we see while out camping, as many don't pull a car. Those that do move would be better off with a class b style as mentioned above.

A thing on the second alternator as a standalone. The B to B charger is more of a simplicity thing, I think, and you can go without it for certain with AGM batteries of sufficient capacity to accept all the amps, or regulator, like a Balmar, that can be turned down a bit on amp output. The B to B chargers come more in line with the lithium use as folks are looking for full cutoff charging as most lithium manufacturers don't want them floated. (you can also now get bigger B to B chargers, at least 90 amps IIRC). Even with the lithium you do a full cutoff by tying it into the relay outputs of a monitor like a Victron.

So, you bet, everybody is different, and that is why all the original questions were about the shown system and how it would be used, and why done the way it is to do that use. A 10KW system would rarely ever need to have an Onan unless full time air conditioning is needed, and then it can still be and issue if you have a propane generator like the Wonder, that would have somewhere in the low 20's hours of run time on a tank of propane. Those with generators would rarely need more than 3-400ah of battery capacity, especially if it lithium, from the systems we have seen and heard about. We never did hear how much power use the system was designed to address as we had heard not much power use and also about running ovens, water heaters, and spas, which would use a lot. All of that energy eventually, or often, will need to be replaced, and that is where the system design is puzzling, depending on how often and how long charging is needed.

Personally, it seems a odd to forego engine charging from and standalone alternator when you are driving, as it is free charge time, less polluting, and no extra noise, even though you are paying for the energy extra in fuel use. If I am going to drive 5 hours, let the van charge the batteries rather than either run the generator on propane while driving or run the the generator when sitting still and having to listen to it.

IdleUp · 10-31-2019, 10:50 PM

Ok great - we’re finally having a "somewhat" normal conversation on lithium.

To start off - every word in the script and every component shown or mentioned in the film is 100% accurate. There is nothing to debate or explain since all the specs on all the equipment is readily available. What’s makes my system unique over other available systems is; mine allows for additional off the grid time since it is supplemented with propane appliances.

Also - I’m not selling anything here and I’m certainly not trying to convince anyone to change their coach to lithium. The only reason I logged 331 hours on my editor and took 5 months to produce this film and spent a ton of money is because I wanted to have a state of the art lithium system which would allow me to stop where I wanted and not be dependent of running my engine or generator to charge. The secondary reason was to produce an independent over-view of a lithium RV system.

It’s also important to understand you don’t have to spent $10-20K on a lithium installation. There is many different levels of installations. I recently helped my neighbor install a small lithium system in his type C RV which only cost $2800 total.

The few things that are unique to my system is the 2nd charger which allows me to run the coach on lithium power, while a secondary charger on a separate cord charges the battery to allow additional run time.

I also came up with a protocol for safety where a low amperage 12 v battery is used while building and testing the system. This modification also doubles as a backup system, so you can walk in a Walmart and buy a 12 volt battery and continue your trip if the lithium system went south. Another unique feature is I equipped my coach with a 4G router so I can access my entire system to include the Xantrex Combox at any location. Finally, the RV also has Ring security system which uses 4G.

booster · 10-31-2019, 11:02 PM

Propane and lithium and not mutually exclusive, and I think ARV still offers propane if you want it. I am also pretty sure the "L" model Travatos use LP heat and hot water, at least as of 2019. I am sure somebody who has been shopping models could fill in the information for certain, and there well may be others as well.

It appears a lot of the gas Roadtreks on Chevies had LP furnace, water heater, even frig with the lithium option batteries.

Nothing exclusive about it, IMO.

hbn7hj · 11-01-2019, 01:53 AM

I think what we missed is we have already been where you are so if you would list your components and cost it would be of interest.

We built systems to match our needs and not one of us has a system identical to another.

Mine has both lead acid and lithium, too. Lithium can charge FLA.

Two have 800AH systems but most are less.

Video is nice but this crowd is more impressed by components and schematics.

GeorgeRa · 11-01-2019, 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IdleUp

…………………..………………………….cheap compressor units costing less than 25% of a good 3 Way unit, ………………………….

To continue this discussion in a more positive mode - where did you get this 25% lower costs from?

GallenH · 11-01-2019, 02:49 AM

To continue GeorgeRa's positive discussion:

I think a lot of us would be interested in a diagram/schematic of your work just to see how it's all put together.

InterBlog · 11-01-2019, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IdleUp

....
I find it puzzling how six users who's experience with lithium is limited to only turning on and off a switch, would have the audacity to contradict the facts of the best experts in the field......

More than six users. I'm not going to jump into the facts of this particular goat fornication of a thread, but suffice it to say that I'm not convinced of the superiority of your proposed design. Maybe it has it's place among the universe of lithium designs - I'll give you that. But it would not meet the specific needs that some of us have designed our lithium systems around.

"experience with lithium is limited to only turning on and off a switch..."

^^ that gave me a good snort. Here below is a labeled view of the system that my husband (a licensed engineer) designed from scratch, and spliced into our existing van voids so that we would not sacrifice space. There are no clunky limpets hanging off storage compartment walls in our design - it's all hidden.

OP, at the very least, you have to realize that you will be dealing with highly-skilled DIYers when you come to a forum like this. We do far, far more than turning on switches. We design switches. And everything else.

Edit: In the interest of disclosure, this system came to about about $10K in materials, only because my husband insisted on top-of-the-line *everything*, including an elaborate 80/20 frame for our high-efficiency vaulted solar panels, which I absolutely love by virtue of their silent "set it and forget it" advantage (I've been off-grid as long as 5 weeks without a need for any other form of charging, and we have a Vitrifrigo marine fridge which is electric-only). We built in 4-way charging because theory is not real life, and sometimes we need the fallback options. Been there, done that, for 5 years now.