Shop talk

[peteco]

I had the same trouble trying to do the coolant flush and replace. I even made a pressure fitting to try to blow everything out. It still seemed like I didn't get all the old out, even after repeated fill and drain and blowing out. I did not take the block drain out, but will do that next time, at 100,000 miles.

I also did the power steering/brake hydroboost system flush. I needed to do that anyway since I had pulled the steering box to replace the pitman arm. That took a lot (6 quarts) to get almost clear fluid running.

I need to do the tranny, brakes and differential now too.

Booster: have you checked your pitman and idler arm? Grab the relay rod and apply a rotating torque. From reading some chevy truck forums these are a weak factory part. Our heavy vehicles probably contribute to rapid wear.

Pete
2006 RT210P

[booster]

Originally Posted by peteco

I had the same trouble trying to do the coolant flush and replace. I even made a pressure fitting to try to blow everything out. It still seemed like I didn't get all the old out, even after repeated fill and drain and blowing out. I did not take the block drain out, but will do that next time, at 100,000 miles.

I also did the power steering/brake hydroboost system flush. I needed to do that anyway since I had pulled the steering box to replace the pitman arm. That took a lot (6 quarts) to get almost clear fluid running.

I need to do the tranny, brakes and differential now too.

Booster: have you checked your pitman and idler arm? Grab the relay rod and apply a rotating torque. From reading some chevy truck forums these are a weak factory part. Our heavy vehicles probably contribute to rapid wear.

Pete
2006 RT210P

The coolant change is a messy adventure, and I don't think you stand a chance of getting it all out if you don't pull the block plug. Even with the block drain out, running a hose or pressure feed into the upper radiator hose won't get it all unless you fill the block to the top and then pull the plug, over and over. Funny thing is that it is easier to pull the plug in the block than drain the radiator by pulling the hose,IMO. Our 07 doesn't have a hose clamp as such on the lower hose, just a push over plastic hose end and a wire clip. You can get it loose through the wheelwell, but it sucks to do and it is hard to see if you got it all back right. I now pull the battery and tray, and remove the overflow tank (need to flush it anyway, one bolt) to get good top access. It takes about 5 minutes to get out, with the only hard part being the overly heavy group 27 marine battery we use for a starter. The block plug is a 17mm allen wrench style, which took a few adapters to get around the oil cooler lines. I just cut off a 17mm allen wrench about 1/2" long and used it in a socket. First time out it was pretty tight, but not bad to put back in and out repeatedly for flushing. I needed to get all the old coolant out because I was changing style of coolant from Dexcool to GO5. I should know today how it all turned out. I ran it yesterday to get the air out, let it cool and pull back the overflow coolant to top it off, and today I will run again. If I don't see orange in the light yellow GO5, I will be very happy. They claim the GO5 is compatible with Dexcool, even in larger concentrations, so it wouldn't hurt to have some in there, but I would prefer not to. Dexcool is an "organic acid technology" and the GO5 is a "hybrid organic acid technology".

Did you have the engine running during the power steering flush? I have seen two different procedures listed. The one in our service manual says to run the engine and pump the brakes to make sure the Hydroboost module is full, the shut it off. You then do the fluid return line removal, turn the steering back and forth to pump out fluid, routine, but don't touch the brakes. The other procedure says to have the engine running while you do the steering thing, and also pump the brakes to change the fluid in the Hydroboost module. It seems like the first procedure wouldn't get all the fluid out. Ours is still very clean, at only 15K, so I won't be doing it yet, except to maybe suction out the reservoir and replace that much. I did our old Roadmaster a while ago with engine running routine, and boy did it drain that little reservoir quickly (3 seconds of running). Return line was like a fire hose.

With all the discussion here, and on the Yahoo board, about front end wear on the Chevies, I did make a point of checking ours, both on the van and on the 96 Roadmaster. The van at 15K and frequent greasing is dead tight, with the only problem being a punctured boot on lower ball joint on the drivers side. It bleeds a little grease when full. The Roadmaster is at 120K miles, and all the parts look to be original. We have only had it about 6 months. I changed all the fluids when we got it, and the only things that were bad were the power steering fluid, and the idler arm had two obstructed grease fittings, which I replaced. All the parts on the Roadmaster were also tight. It has nearly the identical design as the van, except it doesn't have the bearing style frame mount on the idler arm. Both are different from Marko's as the don't use the separate relay rod.

One thing to consider is that the rotating of the relay rod or drag rod is a symptom of the looseness, and in itself doesn't cause much of a problem. Generally there is a spring or other preload built into the parts that makes the ball and socket joint have resistance to turning. When the ball and socket get worn, the preload goes away and they can rotate, or droop, sometimes dragging the boots with themselves causing faster wear. Even brand new parts normally can be rotated with higher effort, and some service manuals actually gave spring pull or torque ratings to test them, although nobody ever does. The testing of the parts by rotating the relay or drag rod, and the tie rods is a pretty good test. If you can move them easily by hand, but the stay up when move them there, they are probably OK, but near the end. If they fall back due to gravity, they are toast. Where you get into missing something is if one end of the rod has failed, and the other side is good, because sometimes they will pass the rotate test, but have a bad pieces. That is why it is also good to have some one rotate the steering wheel within the slop range and see what actually is moving in the linkages. All the tests of the parts, except the balljoints is also best done with the weight on the wheels so the parts are in operating position.

As was mentioned earlier on this board, I think the front end problems are going to get more and more common as time goes on. People aren't used to having to grease front ends anymore. The extended oil change intervals really stretch out how often they get greased, even if they get done every oil change, and IMO, most shops don't use the best grease for the front end parts (moly grease). Quick lube places also don't lift the vehicle so the weight is off the balljoints, which makes the greasing of them much less effective. It also prevents the turning of the wheels to distribute the grease. Back in the day, oil changes were at 2K miles, and the factory said grease every other change, but all the mechanics I knew greased every time because the saw that every other time wasn't enough. With that in mind, remember the front end design on the van is almost identical to a 1970 model. Folks were also much more accepting of wandering vehicles back then, but now the new cars track very well, for the most part. I grease every time I am under the van, or if we get caught in deep water (we were up to the running boards a few year ago), so we will see how ours holds up over time. We will be putting many more miles on it in the future. It also handles very well currently, so looseness should be very obvious to us.

There is an interesting (at least to me) sidenote on the design of some of the parts, particularly balljoints. Many of the aftermarket ones have been adding grooves around the ball to carry grease deeper into the rubbing surfaces. I assume this it to counteract the greasing with the weight on the joints, and less than ideal frequency of service. It also reduces the load carrying, and wear surface, by about 1/3. I have never seen any test results of if it helps all the time, some of the time, or is a sales gimmick. The only first hand experience I have had with them was with my old 1978 Plymouth Horizon, bought new, which had undersized lower balljoints which failed regularly (30K or less even when greased regularly). On that vehicle the grooved ones actually got loose quicker than the solid ball ones, but I think the failures were because of too small a joint, so the benefits of the grooves wouldn't happen, but the detriments would. I have put them in many other vehicles without issue, and since they usually last 100K plus regardless, you get no comparitive information because the vehicle is gone too soon.

[peteco]

Booster,
In searching about this problem I came across a place that sold a pitman and idler arm bracket to prevent rotation.
Here is a site that talks about the brackets, made by Cognito.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavist ... _steering/

Nice writeup, but I don't know how he got the pitman arm to steering box nut off with adjustable pliers. I ended up taking the box out. That nut is supposed to be at 183 ft-lb torque.

Here is a guy that put one on his Express van.

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/76-gm- ... s-van.html

He had to cut away some of the frame to get clearance, which looked like a bad idea to me. I also came across another place that had a super beefy idler arm but I can't find that site right now.

Pete
2006 RT210P

[booster]

Originally Posted by peteco

Booster,
In searching about this problem I came across a place that sold a pitman and idler arm bracket to prevent rotation.
Here is a site that talks about the brackets, made by Cognito.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavist ... _steering/

Nice writeup, but I don't know how he got the pitman arm to steering box nut off with adjustable pliers. I ended up taking the box out. That nut is supposed to be at 183 ft-lb torque.

Here is a guy that put one on his Express van.

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/76-gm- ... s-van.html

He had to cut away some of the frame to get clearance, which looked like a bad idea to me. I also came across another place that had a super beefy idler arm but I can't find that site right now.

Pete
2006 RT210P

Interesting idea, I need to go under and look at the geometry closer to see how much rotation force is on the arm, and what it does. It may be you could do a clamp that would connect to relay rod joint like they did and sandwich the idler and pitman arms, if all you need is to hold it from rotating, and there are not huge forces. That would get rid of the frame cutting which looked like a very bad idea. I do wonder if the tighter steering he saw was because of less rotation, or because the load was now on the bearing in the rod end instead of the original joint which was worn out. Like I said, need to do a bit of measuring. Luckily? the van is still on the stands, now front and rear, so it will be easy.

You mentioned that you still needed to do the differential fluid. I just looked at mine when I put the back up on the stands, and it looks like the generator may be in the way of getting the cover off. The homemade swaybar is for sure, but that is only 4 bolts to move out of the way. I think I will put the stands on the frame instead of the axle and see it that gives more room. Really don't want to have to take the genny loose. This is looking like the, per Marko, suction gun difficulty might be the lesser evil. Maybe time to put the little electric heater under the diffy to warm up the oil! You have a generator in yours?

[markopolo]

So, peteco & booster - your vans don't have a big relay rod?

Two idler arms on mine support the center link. One end of the relay rod connects to the center link and the pitman arm is connected to the other end of the relay rod.

http://www.classbforum.com/phpBB2/vi...tart=11#p16953

Pitman arm not shown in that image.

Originally Posted by booster

........................ As was mentioned earlier on this board, I think the front end problems are going to get more and more common as time goes on. People aren't used to having to grease front ends anymore. The extended oil change intervals really stretch out how often they get greased, even if they get done every oil change, and IMO, most shops don't use the best grease for the front end parts (moly grease). Quick lube places also don't lift the vehicle so the weight is off the balljoints, which makes the greasing of them much less effective. It also prevents the turning of the wheels to distribute the grease. Back in the day, oil changes were at 2K miles, and the factory said grease every other change, but all the mechanics I knew greased every time because the saw that every other time wasn't enough. With that in mind, remember the front end design on the van is almost identical to a 1970 model. Folks were also much more accepting of wandering vehicles back then, but now the new cars track very well, for the most part. I grease every time I am under the van, or if we get caught in deep water (we were up to the running boards a few year ago), so we will see how ours holds up over time. We will be putting many more miles on it in the future. It also handles very well currently, so looseness should be very obvious to us. ..................................

There are 15 grease fittings on my van. Listed here: http://www.classbforum.com/phpBB2/vi...tart=11#p16794

[peteco]

Originally Posted by markopolo

So, peteco & booster - your vans don't have a big relay rod?

I would say the relay rod is big. The parts drawing in my other post shows the relay rod smaller than it actually is.

Pete
2006 RT210P

[peteco]

Originally Posted by booster

This is looking like the, per Marko, suction gun difficulty might be the lesser evil. Maybe time to put the little electric heater under the diffy to warm up the oil! You have a generator in yours?

Yes I have a generator. I have a suction pump that works great. Good idea to heat the fluid. Probably good to drive a while to stir up the fluid too.

Pete
2006 RT210P

[booster]

Originally Posted by peteco

Yes I have a generator. I have a suction pump that works great. Good idea to heat the fluid. Probably good to drive a while to stir up the fluid too.

Pete
2006 RT210P

By hanging the axle and supporting on the frame, it gave just enough room for the cover to come off, although the bolts were a bit hard to get to. For only 8k miles since it was rebuilt by GM, it seemed to have a lot of black gunk in it, but not much on the magnet. Now I am trying to find out what it is. All the parts lists show a 10 bolt gasket and 14 bolt gasket, mine has 12 bolts. Ring gear looks to measure 10.5". It says Dana on the cover. I found some stuff on the web about a 10.5 with a 12 bolt cover in a model 70s (super), which looked like what it was. I went back out and scraped some crude off and found a tag on one of the axle tubes that said it was a model 60s, so I still have some research to do. In the original search, all the Dana 60 units had 10 bolt covers. I am going to keep looking. It does point out that if we have another failure, I will try to find a 14 bolt 10.5" with a full floater. More capacity, and less of an orphan, I think.

Most of what I found on the Dana 60 super was for front diffs, but did find a couple of places that list them for the rear, and for the GM vans. They are only 10" ring gear, just tweaked from a standard Dana 60 of 9.75". 12 bolt cover for added structural strength up from 10 bolts. The standard Dana 60 is listed for a GVWR of only 5500#, so that has to be quite a tweak, I think, or it is not really up to a 9600# vehicle. I would guess not to easy to get parts for either, as it is a very limited use. Bit of a bummer, but I think I will just rinse it out a bit and fill it up with Redline and see how it goes. I wonder if the "towing" package came with the 14 bolt full floater. They just listed that it had limited slip in the literature at the time.

[peteco]

Another interesting product.

http://www.hendersonslineup.com/product ... ss175.html

The idler arm support in my van appeared OK but I replaced it with a new Moog part.

It would be nice to find a Chevy truck expert that really knows this system and all the options to improve.

Pete
2006 Roadtrek 210P

[markopolo]

Photo of a Dana 60 with 12 bolt cover here: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/general- ... ost8474276
Larger: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/35 ... 15ae0.jpg/

[markopolo]

Re: the Dana - you can enter GM and different years here: http://www2.dana.com/expertforms/deabill.aspx
Might give you some info.

[markopolo]

Originally Posted by peteco

I would say the relay rod is big. The parts drawing in my other post shows the relay rod smaller than it actually is.

Pete
2006 RT210P

This link? http://www.classbforum.com/phpBB2/vi...tart=11#p16954 part# 11 is a center link.

Do you have both a relay rod and center link or just a center link?

[booster]

Originally Posted by markopolo

Photo of a Dana 60 with 12 bolt cover here: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/general- ... ost8474276
Larger: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/35 ... 15ae0.jpg/

Thanks Marko, I had just run across that one, too. I was really interested in the discussion about the lack of part availability. If you have to get a ring and pinion from GM, you will pay like 3 times the aftermarket rate. A quick look seems to show quite a few of the 10.5 GM full floaters in the yards, but all of them seem to be 3.73 ratio instead of the 4.10 or 4.11 like we have. Maybe that is why the Pleasure-way Lexor came with 3.73 gears, so they could get the better differential. It does appear the 4.11 gearsets are available and will still fit without a carrier change. I haven't found anything yet on how the full floater stuff would affect the brakes, etc. Looks like it would be between $1000-1500 for a used 10.5 and the parts to change gears and rebuild it, without a new carrier.

It does appear that the 60 super is an OEM only (Ford fronts, GM rears) marginal capacity diffy for a 9600# van.

[markopolo]

re: 14 Bolt full-floating rear axle

My understanding now is that the rear wheel bearings are "oil bathed" so I'm guessing the 2.3 qts of gear oil I swapped out might have only be 1/4 to 1/2 of the capacity. Gear oil doesn't cost much and I have almost a qt leftover so I'll put 100 miles on or so and refresh it again. It'll at least be more than half new oil after that.

also...... the front wheel bearings on my van are not the sealed type. Is there any shortcut to getting some grease in there? I have the full inspect, replace or grease procedure but don't have the seal & cotter pin that it says to replace when you do the job. I'll order those for next time.

Makes me wonder if you could put a zerk on a spare dust cap and pump grease in ........................ would it get to the inner bearing?

[booster]

Originally Posted by markopolo

re: 14 Bolt full-floating rear axle

My understanding now is that the rear wheel bearings are "oil bathed" so I'm guessing the 2.3 qts of gear oil I swapped out might have only be 1/4 to 1/2 of the capacity. Gear oil doesn't cost much and I have almost a qt leftover so I'll put 100 miles on or so and refresh it again. It'll at least be more than half new oil after that.

also...... the front wheel bearings on my van are not the sealed type. Is there any shortcut to getting some grease in there? I have the full inspect, replace or grease procedure but don't have the seal & cotter pin that it says to replace when you do the job. I'll order those for next time.

Makes me wonder if you could put a zerk on a spare dust cap and pump grease in ........................ would it get to the inner bearing?

I don't know of any shortcut to get grease into the front bearings. If you aren't going to clean them, you won't need the inner seal, however, and you usually can reuse the cotter pin if you are careful. Normal procedure is to clean and grease, but you can just pull the hub and add grease to the inner from the back and the outer bearing comes out so you could grease. You would never want to add grease anywhere but right on the bearings themselves, as the area between them is used for heat dissipation and if it is full of grease, it can make them run hot. The greaseable front bearings usually have a fairly frequent maintenance cycle (maybe 15-30K miles?)

[booster]

Marko, here is a link that shows the oiling of a typical full floater. From the looks of the oil cavity, it would be impossible to get all the oil out unless you opened it up from the wheel side. That might not be a bad idea anyway so you could check the bearing adjustement. I think most of them are using tapered roller bearings with adjusters like the front.

http://www.ringpinion.com/Content/Bo...Full-Float.pdf

[markopolo]

Thank you re: both tips and the full floater info.

I can tell the dust caps on the front have been removed at least once so presumably the job has been done at least once. The van has 50k miles on it so I better clean and grease the front bearings. 30k mile interval in the owner manual. Previous owner looks to have really kept up with maintenance. I'll get the seals, grease, cotter pins first and do it before the next trip.

I'm still puzzled about draining the coolant. Everything is so difficult to access. I finally located the radiator drain plug and can just get to it with the driver's side front wheel off. It has a short hose on it so I can direct the flow when draining. However nothing flows out when I turn it so maybe it is plugged up. The bleeder valve is tucked away under the big air intake hose - can't really get to it. There is an interconnect hose between the coolant reservoir tank and the large hose at the bottom of the radiator. I'm going snake a pump hose down there and pump as much coolant out as I can. It is the low point of the cooling system. I'll keep track of how much comes out so I know roughly how much to replace. There is mention of the "vacufill" for my van too. I can see why. I have an old shopvac ..... might just use it.

Were you able get your differential cover back on? Did you need get a gasket?

[booster]

I just got in from putting the cover on. Used a whole can of brake cleaner to hose out the black stuff in the housing. There is a recess at the bottom that does not empty even with the cover off, so I suctioned that and dried it with a rag. No big chunks or slime, and only a film on the magnet, so maybe it is just the oxide off the parts and not any real wear. I am sure I will find out. No gasket available, or recommended for it. It does appear the jump to 12 cover bolts was to strengthen the assembly, so the cover is structural. It is almost 1/8" thick., and torqued tight. If it had a gasket, they would lose a bunch of strength. I used Permatex Right Stuff for the sealant. It is rated for transmission pans, where silicone isn't, so it should survive the Redline or Chevy oil. My manual says to use silicone. The manual also says to wait an hour before filling with oil, and Right Stuff says you can right away, but I will let it sit overnight, as I have the time.

The coolant stuff does suck, I will agree. The radiator drain may be plugged, it happens very often. Also be sure you turned it open far enough. The one on my old Escort took about 10 turns before it was open. If it is plugged, you may want to put you suction gun on those coming off it, and blow some air back in to dislodge what is in it. Compressed air also works good for that.

After getting all the coolant change mess cleaned up off the van, the floor, the tools, and me, I am very glad it is done. Next time I am going to buy a cheap kiddie pool put it under the entire area, to reduce the mess.

[markopolo]

Yup, that's what it was with the radiator drain plug. I wasn't turning it far enough. It is twist and pull to drain and push in and twist to close it again. 12 quarts of coolant out by draining, shop vac'ing and snaking a pump hose down into the big radiator hose at the bottom of the radiator. It was not a complete drain because I can't get to the block drains but I'm happy with the job. No mess because I didn't flush. The 12 quarts went in easy because the block wasn't drained. It gurgled and burped a bit. Hoses feel firm again but I'll double check it all tomorrow when I take the van out of the garage.

Lube job done.
Tires rotated.
Differential oil refreshed.
Transmission fluid refreshed.
Engine oil changed & new filter & new drain plug.
Coolant refreshed.
Adjusted the center set screw on the steering gear.
Inspected the suspension and steering linkage.

I almost have enough fluids leftover to refresh the differential oil, transmission fluid & coolant again. I think I'll put 100 or 200 miles on and do those three again. Then it will be mostly new fluids. Second time around it will be easier.

Next, I have to order some parts: Relay rod, maybe front wheel bearings, rear sway bar, maybe shocks.
I'll look into getting the brake fluid changed and maybe power steering fluid changed.

[booster]

Thought I was pretty much home free, with the messy stuff done, just needed to do the power steering flush, temporarily put the wheels on and adjust the pressure, run it and check the trans fluid, and let it sit on the blocks until we get to go somewhere. Probably will also do our normal 16 gallons of no ethanol fuel plus Stabil plus Seafoam to help the ethanol fuel that is in it, and so we can run the generator without problems when we want.

But---it appears the procedure in the factory manual for the power steering flush is not correct. It says siphon out the reservoir, disconnect the return line to the reservoir, connect it to a drain hose to a pan, plug the return hole in the reservoir, fill the reservoir. They say to just turn the steering to push out the fluid, without the engine running. Did all that, really easy. Except. When you turn the steering all it does is push fluid back into the reservoir and out the top, all over everything around it. Quite a mess.

Finally decided to try the plain old engine running way of doing it. I was pleasantly surprised that just sitting with the engine running, only a trickle of fluid came out into the pan (the old Buick sprayed like a firehose and drained the reservoir in about 2 seconds). Turning the steering didn't bring out much more unless I took it to the stops to get some resistance (wheels were off the ground). Pushed the a brakes and the Hydroboost would give a pretty good shot of fluid out the drain hose. About a 1.5 quarts run through later, I was done with no new mess. This is a very easy flush, and if I had done it right in the first place, wouldn't have made any mess and I would have been done in 10 minutes.

The fluid coming out was nearly the same amber as the new stuff (only 15K miles), but I do like to get out breakin debris. As always, the fluid changes are cheap compared to replacing parts later. I used plain old NAPA power steering fluid (NOT the type with the anti-leak additive).

Hopefully, I will be able to sit in the van, rather than lay under it, in the near future.